2 hours ago, RenneBright.2473 said:
It's not "a real reason", since pdps Untamed has been around for longer
I'm talking about optimized metas.
Power Untamed was never a thing. Untamed was only ever listed as meta for condi.
2 hours ago, RenneBright.2473 said:
It's good as long as you don't need "frequent" stabs (i.e. Sama CM), or this can be otherwise helped by the Adps (Herald, possibly Druid with some tweaking)
Druid's stab output is great with Glyph Of Stars. Too many people try to save it for a revive rather than using it for Stability and extra water field.
2 hours ago, RenneBright.2473 said:
If they beef up the stab application in Untamed & break the stab monopoly from Druid, this could be truly good.
It doesn't have party Stability but you can opt to drop the Elite Spirit in favor of the Untamed Elite, which will pulse a great deal of elongated stacked Stability for the Untamed, so its heal cycles do not get interrupted. This is more important than Stability for the party actually. Anyone who tries to run these Heal Quick Untamed builds, will very quickly see what I'm talking about, when going against any boss that has moderate to heavy CC output. In fact, the more I've been playing it, I would definitely vouch that the Stability off the Untamed Elite is much more important than the Elite Spirit revive for this reason. If Protect Me! is used wisely, it is often enough vs. CCs with decent groups. It can be used quite frequently when Alacrity is incorporated.
2 hours ago, RenneBright.2473 said:
"Cele gear" isn't a dedicated "Heal Quick Support".
Yes it is.
Celestial is just plainly optimized on this build. You do not need any more boon duration & heal stat past what Celestial + Monk Runes/Relic + Transference + Food/Utility provides, which is granting about +43% to outgoing healing with around 1100-1200 heal stat. It's been a long realized reality that pure Harrier on say a Heal Druid, just over-heals in gross ways and creates way too much boon overlap. In this case, it has always been advised to swap out Harrier pieces for Berserker pieces or maybe Zealot, when you learn how to run these builds efficiently, so you can bring a bit of valuable DPS over boon overlap that does nothing at all. There is no reason to have enough boon duration to pump 60s of Regen every 20s while having negligent DPS. It is better to optimize say 20s of Regen every 20s while actually having impactful DPS. And there is no reason to be able to burst heal 60,000 health at the cost of sacking all DPS when you could burst heal 30,000, which is enough to heal anyone to full, while still bringing impactful DPS.
1 hour ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:
I'm curious what you consider "optimized" when the staff ambush is the only one that heals and provides permanent protection.
This is silly. All you have to do to provide beyond permanent Protection is to use 1 Staff + Stone Spirit + Invigorating Bond. You want the Aegis and blast finisher from Stone Spirit for obvious reasons. This allows you to bring Warhorn so you can pump more might with the Sun Spirit, as well as nearly permanent Fury uptime. The CC on Warhorn is important for helping break bars, as well as the Warhorn 4 birds, which in conjunction with Staff auto strikes and even Staff 2, compounds so many hits in a small margin of time, that it very very quickly refreshes the Untamed Elite, in conjunction with Alacrity on it, so the Untamed can have usually permanent Stability. This way its heal cycles can't get interrupted. This is very important.
About alternating Staff auto heals: My good bro, the Warhorn 5 is a blast finisher that you are supposed to put on Water Fields, as well as the Stone Spirit's blast, along with the blast from Rending Vines. You have just as much burst healing with Axe/Warhorn Staff as you would Staff Staff. The only difference is Axe/Warhorn has a lot more DPS value. If the Staff 3 & 5 would magically refresh every time you swapped weapons, then there would be argument to use Staff Staff, but they do not. You're choosing between Staff auto unleash and another Staff auto unleash, or a Staff auto unleash with a blast from Warhorn that is also a CC and a Might/Fury buff that lasts like 20-30s, that also provides #4 bird DPS. Also Splitblade and Winter's Bite is just a lot of DPS packed into those 2x strikes, then you can use the time that you would normally use to auto attack to maintain damage, to cycle heals/utility. This is important to note about Support specs. You don't want to get stuck on a weapon side spamming #1 man. You want to use the important skills and then use the rest of the 9s swap timer to toggle class kits/utility skills. Axe/Warhorn is perfect for this. You land the big DPS with 2, 3, 4, buff with 5 while land CC, use rest of 9s timer to toggle other things. With Staff Staff you're spending way too much time spamming 1 while waiting for important skills to come off CD. That's a waste of resources.
1 hour ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:
We've been running staff/staff because that build makes a full healer out of an untamed rather than something that's worse than being a dedicated healer or a dedicated dps.
Again, with all the gear I mentioned, you do not need more than Cele stats dedicated for the healing. You just don't. Making a build that over-heals and has tiny DPS is silly.
Also, Staff Staff is relying on some mediocre level of "steady heal output" rather than being able to land an actual full-on big burst heal. This build you guys have posted with Staff Staff at the best has the unleash heal and then a water field cast with Staff 3 on to it and then the pet unleash blast. It then has to wait 9s before even being able to swap to another Staff for a Staff 1 unleash, and then it will still be waiting for CDs on any other water field blasting. The Celestial setup I've posted, can do Staff 1 unleash, water field, Staff 3 blast, unleash pet blast, Stone Spirit blast, swap Warhorn blast. <- This is way more healing potential than your Staff Staff builds. And that doesn't even have to be a single burst, it can be divided into segments or used all at once. Either way, this is just a lot more optimized heal potential than a Staff Staff setup.
1 hour ago, Aaron Forestman.4758 said:
If healer dps is making or breaking your encounters, it's not the healer's build that's the problem -- it's the dps players.
I see what you mean, but I would reverse that quote and say it would be more true to say: "If massive heal output is making or breaking your encounters, this is the problem of the guys who don't know mechanics, not the healer".
As in, when you are playing with T3 fractal players who are trying T4s for their first time as example, you could be running a full Harrier/Minstrel/MonkTrasnference everything, and it won't matter. Those guys will still be getting killed to one shot mechanics, they'll have bad positioning so you can't heal them all at once, they'll get hit so often in something like Mai Trinn, that it won't matter how much you heal, it'll result down to the raw CDs of your skills limiting your ability to keep them alive. So stating for big kitten heals like this is kind like a blackhole that keeps pulling the team's efficiency further into the abyss. These are l2p issues. The answer is not stating for big kitten heals. The answer is the players learning mechanics. In contrast to that example, you look at a good group of CM players. At this level, this is when true end-game builds start sacrificing over-healing in place of additional DPS, because people know mechanics. This is the inevitability in the end, and that is why I devised the build the way that I did. This is especially important for Untamed because unlike a Druid that rarely gets moments to use weapon skill DPS who is always in its super defensive class kit to buff Alac, the Untamed is constantly rotating attacks to keep Quickness active. Having DPS on the Untamed matters, and you only need as much healing as you need, when it comes to actual end-game builds.
If you were to go in-game and actually play test a Cele setup like this amongst people who know mechanics, it seems to be optimal. I'm not saying it is final form meta version, but I would say it is definitely in the right direction.
I'll try to go in-game today and dabble/get more footage of a better benchmark & some CM footage.
Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
